Denise:  So, hey everybody. Welcome back. Today on the podcast I have Catherine DiNuzzo. She’s been on before, but today we’re going to be talking about big tea, trauma, and food. Catherine is a Catholic counselor, so everyone just sit back. I know we’re going to learn a lot and she will explain a lot of why we’re doing what we’re doing and how she can help and ways that we can change. So, Catherine, welcome.

Catherine: Oh, thank you so much for having me today. I’m excited.

Denise: Before we get into all the things about Big T, Trauma and Little t, Trauma and learn from you, do you wanna tell our audience a little bit about you? 

Catherine:Thank you so much for having me today. And yeah, so my name is Catherine DiNuzzo and I’m a licensed professional counselor. And I counsel completely from a Catholic perspective. I have my own private practice and I also have a great passion for speaking and doing retreats and really working with people to realize that mental health can be empowering instead of scary.

So many people when they think of mental health, it’s always something is wrong and something is bad. Instead of it’s the waves of life. And I just feel that long ago, God put it on my heart to teach people how to swim.

Swim through the waves that were going to be placed in front of them so that they can feel confident and their head is above water and they can go from one buoy to the next buoy. And it’s just a very big passion in my heart. So thank you so much for giving me a platform today. 

Denise: Oh my gosh. I love the way you just said that, to learn how to swim, right? Because this is our lives, and the Lord knew that our lives would have these waves, and you’re that place that teaches them how to navigate that in a really healthy way. And I mean healthy, like in a way that brings them life in a way that’s connected to him. 

Catherine: Absolutely. And I really like to give this analogy and I think this is a great place to start when we’re talking about trauma, and I use this a lot with my clients, and it’s this idea that we want to believe that we’re gonna go to the beach and it’s gonna be lake water. It’s gonna be flat, no waves. That’s what we want our lives to be. 

But obviously we know that anytime you go to the beach, sometimes there’s small waves and sometimes there’s big waves. And as I started navigating adulthood, I remembered when I was a little girl. I grew up in Colorado, but I had family in Delaware. So we’d go to the Delaware Beach every summer.

And we would go out into the waves and we would learn how to navigate them from my cousin who was from the beach. And when I used to do it, I would go into the water and I would see these waves coming, and I would get scared. So I would jump up really big, turn my back on ’em and get smacked by the wave, right?

All the ladies know it takes your hair, it falls into your face, salt water’s in your eyes and your mouth, and you’re just discombobulated from all the different things and by the time you wipe the water out of your eyes, you get your hair back, the next wave is coming, and all you can do is jump up, turn your back on it, and smack.

And this is actually not a very fun way to be at the beach. It’s exhausting. It’s tiring, and it’s not very much fun. And at first, I felt like that’s why I was navigating the waves of my life. It was like every time a new wave came, I was shocked by it and I would just try to bear my way through it. 

And then I thought about what my cousin taught me and he’s like, what you need to do is never turn your back on the waves. You never turn your back on the ocean. So you’re gonna look at the waves, you’re gonna see ’em coming. Right as they get there, you’re gonna take a big jump and you’re gonna dive into that wave and you’re gonna, I always think of a dolphin, and you’re just gonna let that wave roll over your body. 

And when you come up from that wave, you look up and all the gravity pulls the water away from your face. Your hair is back and you got a good four or five minutes before the next wave comes for you to sit and chat with your cousin and then look at the waves again and see the next one coming. And then we jump and we dive and we let it roll over our bodies. 

When I imagine that, when I think of trauma, when I think of the different complexities that life comes, when I’m able to be stable, have my feet on the ground, watch ’em coming, and know that when that wave comes, I know how to navigate it. It feels so much more peaceful than trying to turn my back on the wave and just survive. Which is what I think a lot of times is what we’re doing.

Denise: Yeah. Just like white knuckling through gripping. Saying like I surrender myself to you, Jesus. Take care of everything. Take care of everything. 

Catherine: Well, I turned my back on you. Well, I turned my back on the problem. Instead of saying, Lord, I know you gave the Holy Spirit and my guardian angel so I can manage any wave.

It might be messy, it might be hard, but I know you’re with me so I can look at that wave and I can dive knowing you’re with me and when I come up, you’re gonna be that light that I see and I’m like, okay, we did it. We got through that wave.

Denise: It sounds like it’s a softening and acceptance and a willingness to look to like actually be aware it’s coming. I can face this. It’s that confidence. Soften and roll with it. 

Catherine: Absolutely. And that’s why my business is called Sacred Heart Mental Wellness, because it always was hard for me to understand why when it came to our physical health, people were like, you should go to the gym. Oh, you got a trainer? That’s amazing. You’re going to that class. Someone’s teaching you awesome. I’m so happy for you. You’re taking care of your physical wellness. 

But then when we did mental wellness, people were like, oh, what’s wrong with you? You’re seeing a counselor. You’re tending to your mental health. It was like, it could only be there when there was a problem. See, we don’t go to the gym when we’re having a heart attack. We go to the gym to avoid a heart attack. 

And so when I created my business, I wanted to change the narrative of let’s not just wait for some wave to knock us over. I wanna learn how to swim, I wanna be prepared. ’cause I know waves are coming. Let’s learn to swim through them. Let’s do what we do for our physical health, which is tend to it regularly to avoid a problem. We can do the same thing with our mental health. The more we’re intentional. 

Denise: I wanna amen that in that I’ve been a personal trainer in the fitness industry for, oh gosh, it’s almost 30 years now. It’s crazy. But the point is that the majority of my professional life has been in helping people with their physical bodies. And I will tell you, I do not live with that philosophy anymore, that your physical body takes priority over your emotional health.

I truly believe that my emotional wellbeing, my children’s, my clients. Every person in my life that I love. I believe that our emotional wellbeing has got to come first. Otherwise we cannot tend to the physical. 

Catherine: Yeah. And we’re body and soul, we’re all of those pieces. And I think when we have that proactive mentality of I can learn how to navigate this, I want you to be physically healthy, emotionally healthy, spiritually healthy.

And that takes intentionality a little every day, small little steps every day. Instead of what we kind of tend to do is wait till a problem comes. And that’s why I use the wave analogy, is we can learn how to swim before the waves come 

Denise: And to transition into our topic today of trauma. And I hope that you’ll give us a definition of what is little t, trauma or a big T, trauma, but I also want to highlight what you just said, which is that no matter where the person is, the woman is who’s listening to this, wherever you are. There’s a way out, and it’s a small intentional process. 

It’s not gonna happen by accident. But it can happen with intention. And it doesn’t have to be big, big, big things. Because I know we’ll get to this too. I’m sure there’s many women who feel like, oh, I’m so far gone. I’ll never get better. But we’ll get to that later. I’ll be sure to ask you that question later. Or maybe for the woman who’s listening right now who’s I just can’t, I’m too far. I’ve had too much in my life. 

Catherine: Yeah. And the first thing, at least I can speak from a counselor’s perspective is I can’t tell you how many clients have come to me in that place in their life. And as a counselor who’s walked through all different types of things, I think it can help you. 

And that’s one of the challenges is people will come to counseling. Thinking I need to come tell this counselor how I’m doing so well, and I’m like, but that’s not why you’re here. If you were doing well, you wouldn’t need that help.

And so a lot of times we think because we’ve tried on our own so many times to do the same behaviors over and over again to fix it, that we’re past the point where when you go to a someone who is specialized in this, is trained, can really help in ways that you would never know. I can’t tell you how many clients will tell me at their first session I plan to never be happy. I know that’s not possible for me. 

And I would just say how sad I am that that’s where they feel today. But also to put that on my shoulders for a little bit because I am really good at helping you to find that joy and peace again with the help of the Holy Spirit in our sessions. But I think there’s this idea sometimes of like, I’ve tried everything or it’s just not for me. And sometimes it’s finding that right fit. 

I have a daughter who’s been sick most of her life and we’ve gone to doctor after doctor wondering what is it, and had those moments where they kinda roll their eyes and they’re like this must be in your head until we found the right doctor.

And six months ago we learned she has a genetic disorder that explains everything she’s ever had and there’s actually societies to help her and all of these things. And she’s finally living her life and feeling better. And so I, 100% empathize with those who are like, I’ve tried it all. Nothing is like, I’m too far gone.

And just, I would challenge with one, you’re never too far gone for the Lord and what amazing things that he can do. And unfortunately, sometimes we have to keep fighting till we find that right. 

Denise: Yeah. And she’s listening here. So that tells me that there’s a place in her that knows that it’s possible.

Catherine: Absolutely. 

Denise: Or at least wants to know it’s possible. All right, so let’s dive in. Let’s talk about trauma. Let the big T, trauma, the little t, trauma. I want to pretend like I am your student and you are teaching us all. We’re in your classroom, Catherine. 

Catherine: So when we think about trauma, one of the things that I see as a crux for people is not dealing with trauma itself. It’s trying to decide, is my trauma bad enough? Is it a big T, trauma? Is it a little t, trauma? What is it? Is it enough? 

And I really actually challenge that we need to start changing that definition because how that’s defined isn’t as much the event, but it’s where you are emotionally, physically, spiritually, when various events happen.

So this goes into the idea of very often when I work with someone, let’s say that they were assaulted, no matter how bad the assault is, their first thing would be, I can’t complain because someone else had it worse. 

Denise: Yes, I hear that so many times. I’ve said it myself. 

Catherine: Absolutely. I think it’s a normal response, but that doesn’t mean it’s a healthy response. And then from that goes I know my friend over here had something way worse and she’s fine. So obviously I should be. 

When we actually are talking about trauma, a traumatic event that leads to trauma, it’s more about like, how was it for us when we were in that moment? What did we have? And that’s why we can’t compare.

And you know, we hear it all the time. Comparing is the thief of joy. But I also think it’s the thief of healing because what we need to do more than focus on is this big or small. It’s what do I need to swim through it.

With my clients, I don’t focus a lot on if this is small or if it should or shouldn’t be. I don’t wanna live in the shoulds. I think that’s not mine too. Like I don’t think it’s of God because he knows their hearts. And if they’re struggling then you’re struggling. 

But let’s look and see how we’re gonna swim through it. And some waves are bigger than others and we have to look at that. But I think when we realize that we have a traumatic event happen, and then depending on how we process or where we are in our life, when that happens, it impacts us differently each event.

I even think of my own life. When I was a little girl, I had a cousin who almost drowned in a pool, and I was the one that pulled her body out of the water. And it was very traumatic to have that event, but mostly because I had no support around it. No one really talked to me about it. She was okay at the end of the day, so everyone was like, oh, I guess we’ve moved on.

And I didn’t realize until way farther in my life when I, my kids were at swimming lessons, how much that still impacted me from when I was a little girl, where I have many other things that I could tell you stories of where I was like they didn’t impact me quite as much, but if I told you, you’d say, oh my gosh, I can’t believe you had to go through that.

And so when we change the idea more of how was I impacted, how does it continually impact me, then we can start deciding what are we gonna do about it? Because we want to acknowledge when we have a trauma, or what I like to call that are the holes in our life. So I always say we have various holes that happen in our life and we want them to go away.

So we fill those holes up with sand. And sand can be your traditionals, drugs, alcohol, sex, but it can be controlled. Depression, anxiety, eating, not eating can be lots of different things. But what happens is we want that trauma to go away. We don’t wanna think about it. So we fill that hole up with sand and we’re like, oh, that feels good. Right? 

And then we start to build our house on this hole full of sand. And what happens just sinking, it falls. And we’re like, oh man, what happened? Why’d my house fall? And we’re like, I know what, I need more sand, obviously. Let’s put more sand in and shove that sand in super deep. And then we try to build our house again, and then it falls.

And this is where I think when we know we have a trauma, when our house keeps falling into this hole full of sand. And what we have to do is learn how to get that sand out and look at that hole. I always tease a little bit that if I had a magic thing that made holes go away, I would sell it and give Mr. Amazon. Run for his money. Like I would be so rich.

Because that’s what everybody wants. He wants the traumas to just go away and just easy. But sometimes we actually have to go in and look at those traumas and learn what tools we need to navigate them, what understanding ways that we can process them so that we can heal them. And I always call it making a basement. 

If we make a basement, we put some cement and two by fours down, then we create a really strong basement that I never have to go into if I don’t want to, I can live upstairs. But I know that I have a strong foundation. And I also know that the basement’s there. 

And I think that’s how we really start to manage trauma is not focusing on as much is this big? Do I deserve to be traumatic? Is this, should I take those should’s out and just say, this is where I’m struggling. Why am I struggling and how am I gonna work through it? That’s where real healing happens. 

Denise: Okay, so to summarize what I think I heard you say, and please correct me anyway, something can happen at some time in your life and depending on the state of your being, physically, emotionally, spiritually, at that moment, there could be an effect, so there’s some sort of effect. Let’s say.

And for you, you gave the analogy of pulling your cousin out and the effect could be the event or even what I think is very interesting that you just said was the after event where it was like nobody, held you through and helped you process that. So that event became a trauma for you but could have been helped had you had the support around that.

Okay. So no matter what, something happens and you have an effect, and now in your day-to-day life, we’re experiencing, let’s say the after effects give me some examples of how the effects of trauma are showing up in people’s lives?

Catherine: I’ll use the example of my cousin because I use this in my book. Where I started to really learn that I had a trauma about this event is I grew up in Colorado and I met a Kansas boy and I married him and we moved to Kansas and we had, you know, four kids, four and under. And he is like, we in Kansas go to the lake. 

Lake people, that’s what we do. We get a boat and we go have a lake Day. And I obviously did not need that. I was a skier, not a Laker. So we went to the lake and we’re on the boat and the kids are with their life jackets, but they’re all over the place and I am having the worst panic attack I’ve ever had. I don’t even know if I’ve really ever had a panic attack, but I had it that day.

I’m sitting on the boat and I can’t see the kids and my husband’s teaching ’em how to swim under the boat and all these things, and I’m just like, head, not handle it. I am having a panic attack. And we made it through that day and I’m like, I hate the boat. We’re never doing boat day. This is the worst thing ever. Why would we ever take our kids to the boat? 

And my husband who lived on the lake, this is normal. They’re having fun. And we just were like in huge disagreement about the boat day and how miserable this boat day was for me, and how I was like, they’re all just gonna drown. They’re all gonna drown and die. Why we can’t do this? I can’t do this. And I was just exaggerating this situation. 

And then after a while of going through this, I realized I was like seeing my cousin and my kids in the water, right? So they’re splashing and having a great time, but I keep seeing my cousin’s body in the water. And I was just thinking, oh my gosh, I’m gonna turn around and then they’re just gonna be under the water. And that’s what happened in that event. 

And I was able to finally talk to my husband about the event because I hadn’t even told him because again, I didn’t think it was that traumatic. Like she was fine. I had moved on from my childhood. It wasn’t. On the forefront of my mind, that event, until I started working through it. And I explained to him like, this is what happened at that event. This is why it’s really hard for me to have boat days. 

And so what we decided was that we would have boat days, except when I only had to be on the boat for an hour so that we could be a family. And that in that time, I got to sit in the middle of the boat and all the kids had to stay within view so no one could go where I couldn’t see them.

So they would all play in this, and then he would drive me over to the dock. I would go to the Airbnb, read my book, play on Facebook to avoid thinking about what was happening. And he would promise me that every day he’d bring them back home safe. And he did. 

And so we were able to see that my response to something that was very natural and normal of them playing at the lake with their life jackets on my response wasn’t a healthy response to the actual event. And so that’s when we okay, here’s a trauma. 

Denise: Yeah. And I feel like that your definition of anxiety is something like that as well, where it’s like your brain is in overload or experiencing extreme danger to something that unless there was a source of a trauma or something would not be extreme danger. Am I getting that correct?

Catherine: Absolutely. I think we have this part of our brain that decides if something safe or not safe. It’s very black and white. Either I’m safe or I’m not. And it learns over time. So it never wants to be shocked, never wants to be surprised. So if it ever is surprised, it becomes super alert of Ooh, water, that was dangerous. I remember that dangerous time. I never wanna be in that place again. 

And so a lot of times what happens with anxiety is that there’s a fear that with my clients, we always say, there’s normally a basis that it’s came from. But then the brain likes to find categories. 

So if you think of a Vietnam vet and they had the explosions, well then they hear a slammed door in the middle of Kansas, their animal brain, that part of that keeps them safe. Can’t tell the difference between a door slam and a bomb in Vietnam. 

So just say, oh, we’re gonna react as if it’s a bomb in Vietnam. We’re gonna be safe. And so it has that same response. And so sometimes we have to realize that when it comes to trauma, that part of our brain that we don’t have a ton of cognitive control over will assess something as dangerous.

And where I say anxiety lies is where the thinking part, which is where your forehead is. It’s saying you’re fine. And your animal brain is like, we’re gonna die. And they’re in conflict. They’re fighting. And that’s where we kind of like roll into the anxiety. 

Denise: Yeah. You know, an example that just came up as you were talking was, somebody who may have lived in a really loud home or something where they were criticized a lot or there was that perfectionism, or they felt like they really had to have a high bar. And you can even tell in my voice, like there was a harshness. 

Like, I see women now who are just so afraid to make a mistake and it’s such a general term, but they go through their life believing there’s a right way and a wrong way to do everything. And they’re so terrified to do it the wrong way. And I see it. And would that be an example of that? 

Catherine: It would be an example, but I’m gonna take it just one little step further. My guess: In those households, it always changed. Doing the right thing change? So when we have a lot of trauma with that, it’s okay, I’m gonna put, you know, we’re gonna set the table at four o’clock. So, okay. At some point I get yelled at and in trouble because the table wasn’t set up at four o’clock. 

So then my brain is like, okay, as a little child, I just have to set the table at four o’clock for dinner. It’ll be ready. Well then life changes one day. So I do what I think, put the table out at four o’clock and then dad comes home at five and is like, why is the table set up? Where’s it going out to eat today? What was wrong with you? You shouldn’t have set up the table. 

And they’re like, the brain goes, wait, I thought I was supposed to sit the table at four and now I’m wrong because I set it up at five, which one is right? So yes, I have the trauma of wanting to do the right thing, to not do it wrong. But a lot of times when those things are more consistent and intrusive in our lives, it’s because that doing it right changed a lot. 

It was very hard to know. When was it? Right? And so then we grow up just afraid that I’m always gonna do something wrong because I think it’s right. And then I find out that it was wrong. I think I’m doing the right thing to not get yelled at, but I’m still just gonna get yelled at. So I don’t really know how to navigate that. 

Denise: Right. Because being right felt safe, but I have no idea what that definition even is. So there’s just that fear of never doing it right, doing it wrong. That’s so intrusive on people’s lives. I mean, where it becomes such a debilitating fear.  

Catherine: Absolutely. 

Denise: So when we look at understanding trauma, is there anything else that you want to educate the audience about before we talk about the relationship of food and trauma? Or should we use a different word than the word trauma? 

Catherine: Yeah, one is I think not being afraid of the trauma. A lot of times we’re afraid to look at it. We’re afraid to get stuck in it. We’re afraid that it’s not bad enough. And when we don’t take that first step of being willing to look at it, it’s really hard to come up with the plan, how to deal with it.

And so the two things that I would challenge any listener here today, because I know everyone listening has had trauma in some way. You can’t live on the side of heaven where their sin and disorder and hardships and not have events that have impacted you. And that doesn’t make you weak. That doesn’t make you bad. It just makes you human on the side of heaven. 

And so don’t be afraid to look at them and don’t be afraid to want to learn how to work through them. I think that’s where we both get stuck. People, one don’t wanna look at it at all, or they’re afraid to get to work through it and to learn how to work through it. And if you’ve gotten stuck before, don’t feel bad. It’s not your fault. 

Sometimes it just takes, again, like we said, finding the right way, the right path, the right words. I know sometimes in my own traumas, someone will say just the right thing, and I’m like, oh, that was it. That made everything make sense. And it just, sometimes we have to have patience and surrender it to the Lord’s timing as we continue to walk in the healing. 

Denise: Yeah. To put a point on that, you said in the beginning that comparing is the thief of healing. And when we compare and say it’s not bad enough, or maybe even anticipate discomfort and additional pain. 

We just say, Lord, I can’t take it. I won’t. I can’t look at it. And that is the block to healing. ’cause the Lord can only come in and heal what we invite him into and what we’re willing to look at. You’re so right. 

Catherine: And also knowing that he is going to reveal it to us in the most gentle time. But I don’t know if when I was 18 years old, I wanted or even thought I needed to deal with my cousin drowning. That happened when I was seven.

But the Lord knew I needed to deal with it with my husband and my kids when I was 32 years old, and he was going to give me everything I needed in that moment. He knows the right time. He is above time and space. 

And so if you’re thinking, well, why is it not yet? Or why can’t I do this? I still lean to that surrendering of the Lord that he is walking this journey with you and he desires your healing so much. But sometimes I think he also knows, and our brains know when we’re ready to handle it and when we’re not.

Denise: So to deal with our trauma or, and I think many women are not even conscious that’s what they’re doing. They’re using food. Talk to me about what you see in your practice and why we turn to food?

Catherine: Well, we have to remember that when we had a traumatic event or we have any trigger of a traumatic event, our brains that, I call it the animal brain, that part that keeps us alive goes into fight, flight, or freeze to keep us alive. And our most basic need is to have food when we think we’re gonna die, right? The body’s job is to take care of itself. 

And so it wants easy to digest quick food that it, you know, it’s, why is it that when we’re stressed, we hold onto our weight? It’s because the body thinks we’re about to go into the desert and starve for years and years and years. So it says, oh gosh, we could be going into war, we could be going into famine, we have to remember our bodies are very basic in God creating it in a way to keep us alive. 

And so when we go into that traumatic event, the first thing we wanna do is survival. And again, this is where that bullying happens to ourselves a lot because that thinking part of our brain is saying, well, I’m just remembering a trauma from my childhood. I am not going into the desert to starve for 40 days. Like I don’t need this. So I’m like, why do I want the cookie? 

But the body says, oh no, this is a stress response. I want food. Because it’s comforting . Even if you think about how salt holds in water. And so you might want the salty, greasy food ’cause your body is thinking, oh no, we’re going to war. I need to make sure I hold onto everything. I need the quickest calories that are giving me the most amount of fat so I can make it through whatever bad thing is about to happen. 

And so there is just a biological drive when we hit trauma that says, food will fix this immediately. And. One of the things I challenge my clients on a little bit is why food is so hard is because it works. Temporarily in that moment, it does feel better until it doesn’t feel better and then the whole cycle continues.  

Denise: Well, and especially if we’ve done this for years and most of us decades, not only does it become so effective in squashing the feelings so that we don’t feel them, it makes our brains feel better. We get that dopamine hit and then we just continue to create that in those neuro pathways so that the minute our body senses danger, the brain goes, Ooh, I know this story. Food. Oh, I know what to do. Food.

Catherine: Yeah. And it’s quick and it’s easy. And again, I think the challenging part is it works. And what we have to realize too with trying to create new neural pathways is that it takes time. I like to think of neural pathways like starting to build a new road. At first there is just dirt and trees and they gotta get those out of the way.

And then it’s like a two-lane dirt road. And then the more you drive on it, then it starts to become the highway and it really takes time. And again, I think there’s that balance of compassion and challenge because we have to realize being mad that my body says this was a sad event. Now I want to eat Oreos. isn’t bullying myself. That my brain does that naturally does not help us in a trauma event. It doesn’t help us overcome it. 

What does help us, is to say, I like to talk to my animal brain. And I say, okay, animal brain, I know you’re scared and I know you think that this is gonna make me feel better. What I really need right now is this, and then I go to whatever strategy I have come up for myself that isn’t going to the ones, the coping strategies that aren’t helpful.

And so giving compassion that the brain isn’t bad for being scared. You’re not bad for being triggered or reminded or just having those hardship feelings from your traumas. We can give compassion and then we do the next step. Okay, animal brain. I know you think we’re dying, like we’re in danger. We are not, and this is what I’m gonna do instead. 

Denise: I wanna take it back just a little bit to some women who say the decades that they have been living in that cycle of scared food. Scared food, scared food, scared food. And to recognize that food was so helpful. And I think that this is where we can have so much compassion for ourselves, where we say, thank God I had food as a tool. It helped me survive a lot.

And I know every woman listening to this can look back and look at all of the things in her life that she’s endured. And thank God it was food. Food allowed her to still care for her family. Food allowed her to keep going. Food helped her feel, control. And it was a tool. And thank God for that. 

And then you get to a point where you’re like, and I don’t want that tool anymore. This tool is no longer helping me. It’s actually bringing more pain to my life. And so the tool that you mentioned was becoming aware first. Becoming aware of this whole cycle and how our brains are working and learning the tools of how to notice, oh, I’m scared. 

And you said, talk to the animal brain of, Hey, it’s okay. I hear you. I see you’re scared. You know some, that’s that whole concept of Kristen. Enough self-compassion of, Ooh, I’m noticing we’re scared. Ooh, that’s coming up. And I really encourage women to not push it down, like you said. Not be, what did you say? What was the word you said? I used the word judgy. 

Catherine: I say bullying.

Denise: Bullying, yeah. Say like, don’t bully yourself. Right. Instead of bullying ourselves or being judgy. I have a new phrase I wanna get on a T-shirt that says, Jesus doesn’t judge. Jesus is gentle. And I wanna be like Jesus with myself. When I’m noticing that fear, Hey, I see you’re scared. Okay. And this is where we start to learn other tools, like you said, build the basement.

Catherine: Yeah. 

Denise: Now we learn, well, what can I do when I’m scared? What brings me comfort? What helps hold that space for me? So that I can start slowly by, slowly, by slowly either delaying my running to food or eventually totally replacing it.

Catherine: Absolutely. And I think what’s so beautiful about the statement that you just said about how Jesus doesn’t judge, one of the things that I think is a key part of judgment and that this whole process that you just said is that if you understand why it’s easy not to judge. 

Denise: Yeah. 

Catherine: Like the Lord knows the trauma that happened in your life that nobody else knows that has made food such a natural response. He knows what happened when you had to run away from a problem or a person, and the only place that was safe was food. 

And so of course, you’re not going to judge when you know a person’s backstory, when you know the reason. And that’s one thing I work with my clients a lot. Again, with trauma, I believe we have to acknowledge it, that it doesn’t work. It’s like missing the first step when walking down stairs. If you could do that, you’re gonna bobble all the way down and wonder why your ankles are broken at the bottom of the stairs. 

You gotta hit that first step and you gotta hit it, right? ’cause then your body knows the rest of the way to go. You know, stairs are made in a specific way in the United States so that you can go down them without thinking twice. But if you miss that first one, everything is kind of off. 

And so when a client has those moments of trauma, the first thing I say is remember that trauma was there for a reason. Like something did happen in your life that makes you say, oh, that’s scary. Meet that with compassion. And then say, and I’m not here anymore.

An example I give of this a lot for people is that, so my dad was an alcoholic, and so he was very functioning until about seven o’clock at night. So about from seven to 10, my life, well, probably midnight, probably wasn’t the best times of my life. 

And so now I have a husband who doesn’t drink anything but Pepsi and is the biggest marshmallow you ever met. Does look scary. But he is just a marshmallow. He never yells. He’s the most docile man. 

And sometimes at night, I’ll be going to bed at about eight o’clock. I can feel an anxious response happening, can feel my heart rate beating. I can just feel like worried about what’s gonna come through the door. And then I have to tell my brain, Catherine, I know it was scary when you were little, but you are not there anymore.

And then I’ll go and hug my husband and he understands. And I’ll be like, okay, I’m just having one of those moments and we’ll put on a funny show and we’ll kind of lay together and I’ll remind myself like, Catherine, you are not that child anymore. But I don’t have to. I can’t do that and meet with compassion until I look at that response and say, okay, animal Brain, I know why eight o’clock is scary for you. 

And my husband doesn’t really understand. ’cause I’ve never told him all the stories. Right. He just knows that it is. And that’s that idea of the Lord. Like the Lord was with me in those moments when eight o’clock was really scary. He’s not judging me because he’s sad that I went through that too.

Denise: Yeah.

Catherine: So I can bring him in to give language to that. That’s always so helpful for me is it totally makes sense. Of course I’m feeling this way. And I love how you’re saying the Lord knows. Of course. Of course. He knows. It’s almost like we’re coming up with that, and I know you’ve got a process for addressing this, the five step process.

But I feel like the first step is even noticing yourself and not living on autopilot. Noticing like, Ooh, there’s something here. Maybe not even being able to name it, but being willing to notice yourself and not go over it and push it away. And then being willing to say, Ooh, there might be something deeper. And to look at it. And then self-compassion feels like it’s in there too. So tell me about your process that you have. 

Catherine: So, I have this in my third edition of my book, so I would highly recommend it. I’m gonna go over it short here today, but there’s many more examples and it’s much more laid out. But so the five steps process is one, the first step is you have to see it, you have to claim it, you have to feel it, you have to be there, and you have to give yourself time enough to feel it. Right?

Again, I always feel that there’s two lies that have been told to women throughout their whole life that makes that first step so hard. One is you should get over it. Don’t be a problem. Don’t feel the feelings, like, we gotta move on. And the other is like, it’s not enough. Like you shouldn’t be, you shouldn’t feel that way.

So then they don’t even sit on the first step and say, none of those things matter because I do, I do feel this right now and I need to see it and I need to acknowledge it. Right? Then I take some time to understand it. Why am I feeling this? Where is it coming from? You know, just taking some time to understand and then I create a plan.

Okay, if I know that at eight o’clock I have memories of scary things that happened at eight o’clock at night in my growing up, well then I need to make a plan to make eight o’clock less scary. Right. 

So that’s why, like I said, with our, like my plan is I’m gonna. Tell my husband and we watch a funny show and then like, he’ll hold me because I need that physical safe feeling, right? And so we’ll kind of have that. So I have a plan of what do I need to do to address what I know is going on? And then I do the plan. 

Denise: Yeah.

Catherine: I gotta do the thing. I gotta say, okay, this is at eight o’clock. Okay honey, let’s go put on friends and watch a show and do our thing. And then the last thing, and this is a step that I think everyone forgets, is you get down to the final step and you look up and you’re like, wow, you did it. Work through it. And you have to celebrate it. 

See, our brains need positive reinforcement to do behavior again. So if we don’t stop and actually take a moment to look at what we did and how we worked through and how I don’t have any broken ankles down at the bottom of the stairs and like I made it through this night. I will slowly teach my brain that eight o’clock isn’t as scary because now I have a plan. 

See, when we’ve done food for so long, all we know is food makes me feel better. But when we have those moments where I felt the feeling, I understood it, came up with the plan, did it, and I did something else that made me feel more proud of myself than going to a coping strategy I don’t want to do, and then I celebrate it, then the brain goes, oh, that’s not so scary. We can handle this. Next time I’ll do the same thing. And then we do that same behavior. 

Denise: Yeah, it’s retraining your brain. Feel free to change any words or correct me, but I would imagine that the majority of the women who are listening to this have just seen themselves in a pattern, feel, feeling food, feel feeling food, feel feeling food.

And now it’s creating that new neuro pathway. Of we’re gonna try something new slowly by, slowly, but each time we try it, I like to say we try it, we can always tweak it so we don’t have to be afraid. If it doesn’t work, we can always add something to it. But to look at the parts and say, wow, see brain, we did it. We’re creating a new neuro pathway.

I think we’re living in such a beautiful time with the advancements in neuroscience and psychology and coaching and counseling where we are given these tools that give us back control over what the Lord gave us control over in the beginning. There’s a lot of unholy ways that we try to control our world, but we can control our thoughts and our behaviors. And he’s saying, see, I’m gonna teach you how to do that. 

Catherine: And not forgetting that he gave the Holy Spirit to guide us. Like the Holy Spirit is there to that we don’t have to know all the things. I would, all of the examples I gave today were examples that took time and prayer and practice and correction. Right. Learning how to acknowledge something and come up with a new strategy that fits better with the life I wanna live now, takes time. 

Denise: Yeah. 

Catherine: And that’s okay. And I just think sometimes , you know, just the way our world works is you should just know. Like we have a lot of pressure that people should be able to figure this out on their own and just like, oh, it’s just A plus B equals C. That’s easy. Where I think it’s like A plus B plus H equals, I dunno, like.

Denise: Right. 

Catherine: We need the Holy Spirit. He gave us the Holy Spirit to guide us. And so sometimes when we’re like, I don’t know how to fix this, I don’t know how to do step three and come up with a plan, Lord, open my eyes to what I’m supposed to see. Lord, put someone in my life to help guide me to the next step. 

Allowing the Lord in there to be that peace. Like I just feel like there might be a lot of listeners today thinking, this all sounds great, but I have no idea how to do it. It sounds good. I want all of that. Yet I don’t know how to get there.

And that’s where I challenge people so often is that I think the world again says we should just know it instead of realizing that that’s what God puts. On our hearts to be counselors or coaches or you know, has the Holy Spirit. There’s just, he never expected us to do it alone. He’s I am giving you all of these people, all of these resources to help you through this.

And so if you’re sitting there listening today saying, this sounds great, but how I think, you know, you’re a great resource. They can always reach me out at my website, read my book. But there’s a lot of things out there to say, okay, there’s a lot of resources, and the Holy Spirit is sitting with you right now to help guide you to what the next best step is in that healing process.

Denise: Yes, I like how you just said the next best step. So Catherine said, there’s all of these people and resources to help you. And the Lord gave them to you, but he also didn’t give them to you to do all at the same time. And that’s where our animal brain wants to say, but I don’t know where to go. I don’t know what to do. What should I do first? 

And this podcast is not meant to tell you what to do first. It’s meant for you to sit with the Lord and he will guide you, Hey, do I want to deal with my trauma? Do I want to look at Catherine’s book? And I want you to give everybody. What’s the name of your book?  

Catherine: The Catholic Guide Through Anxiety.

Denise: With a new chapter on trauma. And that also goes through the five step process that you just laid out. 

Catherine: Yep. Yes. And goes through the five step process with Saints stories so that we can really see how the Lord works through that process, for our Holiness. I think it’s just a really important piece, the understanding trauma and anxiety.

Denise: Because you said earlier, off the recording, that many people look at the saints and they feel like, oh, all they did was trust the Lord and it was so easy for them. But you have a different take in your book. You get more down into the specifics. Can you share that?

Catherine: Yeah. And I love being Catholic and I love my faith. But as a counselor sometimes it’s hard because I feel when people are suffering, we go to the response of, you know, well just love the Lord and he’ll make everything better. 

And here’s this saint, one of them that we have in the book is Saint Ignatius. And, he had this traumatic event of war and then he read the Bible and now he loves the Lord and everything is okay.

Well, that’s not really his story. He actually had to like, wrestle with it. He had to read and wrestle with it. He had to come up with. A plan of how he was gonna change his life. He, there’s a long process that got him to that place. 

You know, we talk about St. Paul in the same, right? You know, where there’s a story of how he allowed the Lord to work in his life with very strategic steps, which is the process that we talk about in the Book of the five Steps.

You can see that they have to acknowledge where they are. They have to understand why are they where they are, where do they wanna be, come up with a plan and how the Lord works through all of those steps to help them get there. And so, yes, I think as Catholics, we, 100% need to celebrate in the joy and the love of the Lord.

But we also have to remember that the resurrection happened because of the crucifixion. Right. There was a process that led to that on Good Friday. You know, Jesus wasn’t saying, oh, I can’t wait for tomorrow. The cross is gonna be amazing. He is crying, he is sweating blood. He is like, Lord, if I cannot do this, please let this pass from me. Of course I’m going to do your will. 

But there was a process of him having to go through that hard to get to that space. And I just think we as Catholics, if we could embrace that more of a process, I think we’ll be more successful. Because if we just think about the resurrection, that’s very intimidating in our humanness to be like, how do I just know that the Lord is gonna fix everything and not understand the steps that he’ll help me to make that possible. 

You gave the example of sometimes we need a different tool and I think the Lord, we start off with a hammer and then before we know we’ve got a whole toolbox of things and he’s Hey, look it, I have a screwdriver that will work way better than a hammer. And you know, I also have, you know, an air compressor and I have all these. Let me show you how to build this with all these different tools I can give you. 

Denise: Because I created you and I know what you need. I know what you need for healing. And I think being able to say there is just no right way. It’s what works for you in this season of your life. There’s no right way and that can always change. I believe if the woman listening to this can just believe anything will help. One step forward, that first step. 

Catherine: And one of the things, a prayer that I use in my life on a constant basis is, Lord, open the door to what you’re asking of me. And I will faithfully walk through. So a prayer that I’ll say is, Lord, help me to see where you want me to go. And give me the courage to go there. 

Because sometimes I think we as doers want to find the thing and do all the things, and we get lost on what’s the next right step when we just surrender it and are like, okay, Lord, you open the door and I’ll walk through it. I’m gonna wait till you open the door. I’m not gonna go looking in every door. Like, is it this one? Is it that one? Is it this one? 

I mean, I think you can read about stuff. But the Lord is gonna make something very clear. If you think about the things in your life where you allowed the Lord, just so often you think of your spouse, you think of various things, you’re like, yeah, the Lord made it so clear the door was wide open. Go and I just need the courage to walk through that door. 

Then we see the what God wants for us hidden under a bush. And we have to go, where is Waldo and find it. And in my experience that door normally opens pretty big. Sometimes I’m like, Ooh, I don’t like that door and I’m going over here. And that doesn’t work so well. 

So I’ve really started trying to just say, Lord, help me to see what you want me to see. Give me the courage to go through the door that you open, but also have patience for you to open that door. So like you said, there’s many tools and every person’s path is different, which tool they need. But I think when you allow the Lord to kind of present, he knows the path that’s best for you. 

Denise: Yeah. Being willing to ask him to reveal to you what it is he wants you to know. And as you said, he will tell you in the most kind and gentle way, and he will only reveal to you what you are ready to know. Wow. Well, thank you Catherine, so much for your time today and sharing all of your wisdom. Is there anything you’d like to leave our listeners knowing?

Catherine: I would say that I would just want to first say how proud I am that they’re even listening to this podcast. I think this is a beautiful first step. I think just even allowing the Lord into this space is beautiful and trauma is hard and it is messy, and you are not weak because it is hard and it is messy.

But you are not alone. The Lord is there with you. He knows the trauma. He knows parts that you don’t even know. All he desires is your healing. And to not be afraid to surrender it to him, bring it to the cross, he wants it, he sees it, he already knows. He’s just let me in. And pray for the courage to take whatever the next right step is.

Denise: Yeah. Okay. Straight from the Lord to our listeners’ ears. And where can everyone find you?  

Catherine: So I have a website, sacredheartmentalwellness.com. And again, that’s sacredheartmentalwellness.com and the Catholic Guide through Anxiety is on there. And with all the new trauma information and the steps, I highly recommend this book. If you got the second edition, I promise you the third is so much better. I’m super excited about the added material that’s in there. 

There’s also videos that help understand anxiety, mental wellness, and there’s also a place if you wanna bring me to come talk to one of your women’s events or a conference. I really feel a passion to share mental wellness with the world and to give a positive, empowering message that so many people need for mental health. And so you can find that all there. 

There’s also a free mental wellness assessment that you can take to kind of see where are you in this journey, so where are you managing your traumas and gives a lot of great steps forward for that too. So Sacred Heart mental wellness, and if you like a little merch with the sacred heart on it, there’s lots of great stuff there too. So check me out at sacredheartmentalwellness.com. 

Denise: We all love merch. Alright, Catherine, well thank you so much.

Catherine: Thank you. It’s been wonderful. Thanks for having me.